TRANSCRIPTION

Sam 0:02 You're tuning into the Still Minimum Wage podcast with your hosts Courtney, Fifa and Sam. We're three creative entrepreneurs who met during a group coaching program and started a podcast so that we can share all of our struggles, talk about all the real and the raw of owning a creative business. Each week, someone's going to step into the hot seat and we're going to get coached by our two buddies on the call. We love talking about business, marketing, systems, getting organized, and what does it look like to finally build a business that pays you a little bit more than minimum wage.

Fifa 0:44 Welcome back to the Still Minimum Wage podcast. This week's topic we are going to be addressing Courtney's problem, which is still being in the friendzone. And so she has a really big audience but her problem today is mostly just trying to convert that audience and getting the sale without being friendzoned.

Sam 1:07 I just want to have Courtney clarify in her own words what she means about being in the friendzone.

Courtney 1:14 Yes, I put some thoughts around that. For me, being in the friendzone in terms of business, not in terms of dating, because that's a whole other podcast. There are people that will tell me, "I like your content, your feed is really aesthetic, it's beautiful. You're a really nice person." But there's no interest it seems like in working together.

Fifa 1:36 So to start the conversation, let's take this over to Courtney and hear what she has to say about her problem.

Courtney 1:43 I'm a social media strategist and coach for creative solopreneurs, specifically within weddings. But I've also found myself working with brand photographers and other people that aren't within the wedding industry, which is really interesting. I was able to build an audience of over 1500 followers in the past year. I have all sorts of freebies and have streamlined my offers but while I am in the DMs and having conversations, I feel like the response to any of the offers that I put up is pretty low. Now, a lot of these people came, started following and interacting with me. After reels came out, I had a lot of traction from that. I do a weekly teaching on IG live on Wednesday nights at 8 pm, and I feel like that was actually really powerful and growing trust. But even with my lead magnets and my freebies and trying to push people to my Facebook groups, I just don't know how to get my audience to work with me on a deeper basis. My offers aren't even priced that outrageously. One of the things and pieces of feedback that I've gotten from this mastermind is that I'm actually priced pretty low and should be raising my rates. But I just am at my wit's end in knowing how to get people to invest in me. Not only so that I can have the business where I'm paying myself, but so that they can get the help that they need. Because with a lot of them, I can clearly see what they need to do to fix their content on social but I don't have that commitment timewise or financially to give that feedback to them. And just to keep it super real, I am quaking in my boots today because I know you guys are going to bring the heat, but I'm ready for it.

Fifa 3:46 So that is something that a lot of people struggle with and when it comes to asking for the sale, it's something that is not very comfortable for most people because knowing sales in itself is a very... has a very bad connotation to it. So, in that regard, what's the process of you starting a conversation with a potential client? Kind of just walk us through how you eventually ask for the sale. What kind of questions do you ask the potential client and what do you do right now currently to try to convert that into that person into a client?

Courtney 4:27 So that question alone is already very revealing. I really struggle with asking for a sale or even inviting people onto a discovery call in the DMs unless they bring it up first. If they bring it up first then I have no issue. I'll send them a link to my Calendly and I'll tell them this is what's going to happen on the call. And if I can get them on a call, I usually.. if they're a good fit, it's a really easy sale. But when I'm starting a conversation with them in the DMs, I feel like I can get to know them and invite them to either free things or point them to a resource. But beyond that, I don't even know if I'm like, inviting them or pointing things out to get them to see me as someone that they would hire. And additionally, I have been building an email list. I have like over 300 people on this list but I feel like I'm not getting a response from most of them. The responses I do get are people where it's like, okay I kind of expected that because they're people where I know them personally, or we ... you know, are in like another mastermind but they're definitely not my ideal clients that I want buying from me.

Sam 5:40 My question to you is from your experience in those dead leads, do you find a commonality with them being that they just don't value social media management or like strategy based on what you see on their profiles and how they post?

Courtney 6:01 That's a really interesting question. You know, sometimes I think that I'm not sure if they understand the value and importance of marketing and how much of their business is marketing. So I started off specializing my coaching program around social content creation but my background is actually in like 360 campaign management. That includes email, it includes in-person activations like the whole, how everything works together. And what I feel ... the insight that I get when I talk to people is that, they feel like they need to be consistent on social and they're not sure what to say. But I'm not getting the feeling that they're spending all of this time on marketing and they feel like they just don't know what they're doing. Like, I don't really know how much they're investing in their marketing with time or with money.

Sam 7:01 Follow up question, do you know if their pain point that they do recognize even aligns with the problem that you solve? So for example, for me, I'm a brand designer for Instagram. The pain point that people come to me with most of the time is like, I don't know what I'm doing on Canva. Or, my stuff doesn't look good (people aren't gonna like me, because it doesn't look professional). So, what would that be for you?

Courtney 7:30 The pain point that I set up myself to solve is how to show up consistently on social because you have a bank of content that you can pull from. That you've decided and figured out what are the evergreen topics that you need to talk about to make your audience problem aware. So I'm trying to make my audience problem aware that they can show up more consistently on social and continuously be marketing, in a sense, but I don't know if there's just a disconnect. But the other weird thing is, you know, with 2020 being COVID year, and a lot of my target audience being in the wedding industry. Budgets are really tight because weddings have taken a huge hit and it's just an industry that in and of itself has ... they're just not sure what to do and not sure how much longer this is going to go on. So I'm torn between knowing if it's an industry problem, or if I'm just really bad at selling.

Fifa 8:31 How often do you talk about your clients pain points in the DMs or even in a regular conversation even outside of the DMS?

Courtney 8:44 It's easier if I'm with them in person. And so, when I'm with them in person, that's actually a little bit easier to have them take me seriously. I'll hear the mention like, oh I should get on a call with you, which is not something that I hear in the DMs. But I think it's because maybe I'm not asking, I don't think I'm asking about their pain points in the DMs unless they bring it up first.

Fifa 9:09 Definitely something that I would suggest is to get them on a call as soon as you can so that you can connect better because in the DMs is really hard to get that connection. Just get them to talk. Ask them questions to be able to identify what struggles they're currently having with their social media or with any other type of marketing strategy. I find ... talking to them but also getting to know them and then transitioning that conversation into what it is that they're currently struggling with in their business and see if there's any way you can help them in some way or another. Then, go and ask for the sale. When it comes to selling, there's a lot of confidence with that. So, what do you feel is holding you back right now? How is your confidence level right now? I just want to hear that. Like, what is stopping you from asking that sale?

Sam 10:09 I don't feel confident that the trust is there and that it will be awkward if they're trying to like, find a way to brush me off. It's just, it's like kind of ... anticipating the rejection before it actually happens. I know that's what's holding me back even in the DMs from talking more specifically about their pain points. And it might be because I know what it feels like to be sold to in the DMs. Where it's like, oh you started this conversation with me but I can tell all you want is to have an opportunity to pitch. Because I'm cognizant of that, I find that I don't want to be doing the same thing. I think that there is also a piece, which Sam and I have talked about ... I might be skewing from your original question, where I may not be talking to my ideal audience as my followers on Instagram. There might be a mismatch there too, either in terms of investment or in terms of like seriousness to invest in their business. Now I would say, you have to consider what your services are. It's social media. For a typical business, that's kind of like, not a top priority in this current state of businesses in 2020. The kind of audience answers like, I obviously need a website. So with social media is kind of something, if it's fair to say that ... it's the assumption that it's more of a luxury expense or investment versus a necessary cost of business. Right. Whereas, you would say otherwise because you know that social media is the forefront of people's marketing. Marketing is literally what most businesses struggle with when it comes to sales.

So I'm going to turn up the heat a little bit for me because, on your feed, I was taking a look at it, and the reason why I think you're coming off as a friend is because you're really just giving kind of like ... helpful generic tips. Like, hey you guys need a lead magnet or hey, here's how to use reels, right? Whereas, again, you're not addressing their pain points or the reason why those tips even matter for them. Because if your audience are the people who are kind of problem unaware, they're just going to be like, oh she's just giving me tips and that's what a friend would do. But a strategic partner would tell you the reason why you need to pay attention and how this can help you grow your business. So my question to you is, you were saying that you feel like from your experience of being sold to, it kind of put this mindset on you that if you were to ask for the sale, you'd be pretty much doing that same experience to your potential clients. I would encourage you to think otherwise. Like my coach has said, a call like a consultation call or a discovery call, the goal isn't the sale. The goal is to serve and you serve by identifying the person's problem and seeing if you actually have the solution for them. Basically, if I were to get on a call with you, could you identify my problem or prompt me with questions so that I can speak about my problem? And could you tie it into the service that you provide?

Courtney 13:32 I feel really comfortable on calls in terms of asking questions like, it is probably 60% me asking them their questions and clarifying things. I also collect a lot of data upfront. There is some hesitation when I ask for the sale unless I feel like it's a no-brainer and that they're really receptive to it. Like you know, they've used the language about, "I'm looking for help" or "I'm looking to invest" versus like ... there were some people where I was like, oh I don't feel like this is a good fit and I don't want to make the offer. But it is a little easier selling on a call than it is to like even make that invitation to get on the call, if that makes sense. But I still have a little bit of hesitation. Sam 14:16 Why do you think that is?

Courtney 14:18 I think that is because I ... want to be sure that I can help them get the result that they want. So, sometimes they'll talk about just a problem that they have and sometimes it's not necessarily a problem but they want a result. They want to increase their engagement by X percent or they want to get this many sales and it doesn't feel aligned with like the tactics that they're doing. So if I don't feel like, oh yeah, I'm sure we can do this, there is a little bit of that hesitation of just overselling and not delivering.

Sam 14:58 So it seems like you're saying that the people come to you for a result that you don't offer. So then the action to combat that because you're getting the wrong problems, is to address the pain points in your content. For example, they're coming to you because they want to 10x their engagement. So you don't want to talk about engagement on your content at all. You want to talk about a long term strategy for brand growth or something like that.

Courtney 15:28 That's part of it. I also want to walk back a little bit about what I said actually. Now that you said that, I don't think that's the main problem. A lot of times, actually what makes me hesitant is that I can tell from what they're saying that the budget is going to be an issue. That they don't seem and they're not showing signs that they're serious about investing. So either, they're kind of picking my brain or they want to see what an option is because there are other people where I've signed them and it's pretty clear that they have high intent to buy. And then there's other people where it makes me hesitant to sell and I feel like they aren't really seriously looking to invest.

Sam 16:08 So I feel like that's not really a problem. So your problem isn't asking for the sale for the right person who has intent to buy. The problem is that you're getting on calls with people who don't have intent to buy and you want to decrease the amount of people who have no intent. So my question to you is, what do you think in your current marketing is the broken filter in your funnel that's letting these people through?

Courtney 16:31 In the broken filters ... a little bit around like this scarcity mindset is that ... and this I know about myself is, I am not competitive. I don't want to compete with anybody. I don't want to go up against someone ... like if someone were to have the same offers as me and the same price, I'd be like, ah I don't want to play. And it is that fear of rejection I think, at the end of the day. So that's why I create all of this free info and it's like, take this. Take this. Take this. Hopefully fall in love with me with everything that I'm giving you and that you make that connection of like, wow she's giving all this for free. Imagine what it would be like to work with her if I pay her! And while that has worked for the few that have been my ideal client, for the majority it's not working. I think that the consistent themes for me is fear of rejection, and it's not having the full confidence that people will value my work. At the end of the day, those are two things that are really holding me back.

Sam 17:39 You've told us before that everybody that you pretty much engage with in-person or even hop on a call with, they like you right away. So it's not about them liking you. And when they say no, you already said that yourself, you said it's about the budget. It's not even about you. It's not even about the competition either because like honestly, I don't know who your competition is, I think maybe cut back on looking at other social media people and doing that comparison thing. But you're offering like a one-on-one thing like, this is not something they can kind of just buy off a rack or something. You're offering a tailored solution to them because each brand is different and the way that they approach social media has to be different. Like so, for example, I'm actually a client of yours and there are some like trendy content that's not on brand for me. Like I won't do ... as much as reels you preach that reels are like getting so much traction, I will not do like one of those trendy dance things. That's out of my comfort zone and that's not on my brand and my audience, they just want to get straight to the point and they want to solve their problem. And so, what you offer is taking into account what each brand needs and having the knowledge of what content would fit their need.

Courtney 18:53 I think a part of my problem too is in my content I'm not clear enough. I'm not getting to the point of like, you know, I think ... it could do with the fact that I'm not super clear on my niche and I do feel like I need to go back and do market research to get clarity on what the pain points are. But yeah, I think it could be a volume problem and not a quality problem in terms of speaking to the pain points.

Fifa Tran 19:26 Yeah, once you have that niche figured out then it'll be easier to target those pain points and have more of that in your content because it's true, if you're not addressing the problem in your content then it's not going to prompt them to want to talk to you as wanting your service. So, I would say definitely add more about that in your content. I'm kind of like you in a way where ... I feel like sometimes I am friendzoning the person too. I kind of feel the way that you do and it is all a mindset thing. Sales has never been my strong point either. Just asking for the sale is very very difficult but for me what has helped me is I'm very open in general to networking and meeting people. I'm very open-minded compared to before and I'm a lot less shy also compared to before. So the way that I approach these calls usually and the way I ask to get on these calls is I tell them, okay, well let's get on a call together and discuss further. And then, in my head I always think ... okay, if this doesn't work out then I have a referral network. I have people that I have on my list that I can actually refer this person to if it doesn't fit within their budget to work with me. So in that sense, I'm shifting my mindset from needing to close the sale to actually having another person in my network that I could build connections with and potentially collaborate with. Actually helping somebody else that may be able to help them better than I can within the budget that they have or whatever needs that they have that I can't figure out or I can't serve them myself. So it's all mindset for sure, and I feel like, what's really helped me is getting on that conversation just getting to know this person, what their needs are and actually helping other people in referring this person to someone else if I don't end up closing the sale. And for that reason, it's also helped me in a sense where ... they now have me in their network so if they know of somebody else in their network as well, same as kind of like how you do that and how each of you do it, we kind of refer each other customers. So if it doesn't work out with us then, you know we're helping someone else in the long run.

Courtney 22:17 Yeah, that feels really aligned and the reality is there's a lot of mindset work that I need to do.

Sam 22:23 I really love what you shared there Fifa. I mean, it's all about service. So like the 15-30 minutes that we get on this call ... in all my capabilities, how can I best serve you? And it might not always be what I particularly offer for sale but if I can serve you in a way just to have that trust and faith that it'll come back to me in a different way. It's an exchange of energy.

Courtney 22:52 Love that!

Sam 22:53 One thing I wanted to bring up Courtney, moving forward with your content. If budget is an issue for a majority of people you have conversations with then, I think you need to address that objection and give them a reality check on what it really costs to play the social media game right. What are they losing by DIYing it themselves? What impression does that leave on their potential sales? How much sales are they losing by trying to piece it together getting free tips here and there? Whether that be from you or anywhere else versus having someone sit down and strategically think about what their game plan is. So like what Fifa does is she doesn't just build the website, she really considers like, what is the information that needs to be put on the website to get those calls booked? And so, if you have to explain it to people through your content the same situation I was like, what kind of resources and mental thought does it take to build trust with their audience through things like content and to build brand awareness and pitch sales.

Courtney 24:12 That's really helpful! Thanks. I can see how I can tweak my content to be more about that. I think some of it too is, a lot of it is in the caption but people don't always read the caption, so ...

Fifa 24:24 Also, do you put testimonials on your content? Do you showcase your clients testimonials? Courtney 24:32 I've sprinkled them in here and there. I don't have a lot of recent ones and that's been like a pain of following up to get them. But I know I could probably show more.

Fifa 24:45 Yeah, because that could definitely help you in getting those testimonials to showcase your credibility. In order to ask for these testimonials, I actually ask them to fill out a survey. But also if they want to take that extra step to give a video testimonial, then I would offer to create a branded email signature or something small that won't take you so much time that you can just give to them if they provide you with a video testimonial. So far since I've tried that, all of my clients have given me video testimonials. So I mean it's definitely working for me and I think it's definitely something that could help you as well if you can figure out some sort of freebie or something in return. That could prompt them to take that extra step and get those video testimonials. I think that would be very very helpful for you.

Sam 25:38 That's a hot market! Put that in your value prop.

Fifa Tran 25:41 I definitely should. But how about you Sam? How do you get your clients to get you testimonials? Sam 25:48 Basically, my reveal calls are my ticket to testimonials. I explain to them ... here's the process. We get on a call, we come up with your brand. I do the design, we get on another call. I show you your designs and you give me a testimonial. I put that in my welcome packet like, "hey during this call, I'm going to ask you a testimonial." Then the day of the video call I'm like, "heyyyy reveal call! Make sure you put your makeup on because I'm asking for a testimonial."

Fifa 26:19 I love that! That's so smart Sam.

Courtney 26:22 That's actually something I'm integrating into my last coaching call.

Sam 26:27 Yeah, whatever your last call is with the client, I would just be like, "hey so I'm going to ask for like a 30-minute testimonial." It's usually better because then you don't have to follow up with them and chase them or bribe them to give it to you. Like they're already on a high energy from having the result. That's how I do it. Okay So Courtney, in your own words, what would you say is your biggest takeaway from our conversation?

Courtney 26:54 My biggest takeaway is to speak more directly to people's pain points. Whether it's in content or in the DMs and to get them to bring it out more. Even making that invitation to like chat more about those problems so ... that would be my biggest takeaway.

Fifa 27:13 So to wrap this up, we're going to give you two action steps that you can take that could help you in converting to more sales and not getting friendzoned like Courtney does. So the first thing would be to shift your mindset to serve. Instead of just thinking about selling every time, you have to think of it as an abundance mindset. There's competition out there, sure. But you have to shift your mindset to think that there's enough people and enough customers for everybody. To shift your mindset entirely to serve people and not only think about the money every time. The second point would be to address more of the pain points and the objections within your content and to talk more about it so that you can bring up the issue about what your potential clients can be having. Also, to shift the attention to how your solution could ease that pain.

Courtney 28:19 Alright! Now's the time where we introduce our freebie of the week because we are still just making minimum wage. We can't be spending tons of bucks on all of these different tools that are out there and subscriptions. So we made it our mission to highlight a tool that you can use right now in your business. And here's Sam with our feature!

Sam 28:37 So, if you follow my page at all or know what I do, I'm a brand designer for Instagram. The bread and butter of my business that literally took my business off was this free tool, Canva. Now while I pay for it because I need to use it for my business, you can use it for free to promote yours since you don't share templates with your clients. So, basically Canva is a graphics editing tool that you get pretty much drag-and-drop elements and text onto you can easily change up fonts and colours and whatnot. It's basically a great way to create more engaging content on your Instagram. And I would especially encourage people who are using video, like reels, to create covers for that. And so the tip there is to use the Instagram Stories' premade size to create the reels and keep your text within the middle of that design. If you want to remove backgrounds from your photos, you can try a 30 day free trial of Canva Pro. If you don't already have a Canva account, Check the link in our description for that.

Fifa 29:46 So that concludes our episode of The Still Minimum Wage Podcast! Make sure to share this episode and leave a review for us. That would help us so much!

Sam 29:58 Leave a review so that Fifa can buy me some boba tea.

Fifa 30:03 Leave a review so that my boyfriend will know that this podcast is serious and he'll stop playing zombies in the background.

Courtney 30:10 Please leave a review so that my friends that bought me this podcast mic know it was worth their investment.